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New rule <GS10> is a big change this far into season (and comments on GS11)

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  • New rule <GS10> is a big change this far into season (and comments on GS11)

    Just an observation based on what our kids had been designing, but GS10 is a pretty significant alteration of the game rule strategy. The modification of GS3 hits them as well, but could have been anticipated (although they didn't expect quite that extreme of a shift considering the initial wording e.g. *no* limit). Was this just oversight on the design team's part? The kids picked up on the no-limit part right away?

    GS11 will be interesting to enforce since there are multiple pathways and in the past, it hasn't been necessary to provide the most optimal. If a robot is parked at the middle of the crater wall and is blocking the small portion between the crater rim and their *own* alliances hold, if the other team has to move from the crater wound the lander to their own holds, does that constitute blocking? It wouldn't have in prior years. GS5 and GS6 are clear, but I think GS11 will require some scenario diagrams to clarify.

    Technical Coach, Newton Busters FTC 10138, FLL 3077
    Chicago 'burbs, IL

  • #2
    [B]I just got the new release of the game manual that contains the new rules GS10 and GS11. Our whole machine is designed and being built around a concept of parking and using a pair of 4

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    • #3
      Got cut off....we were intending to park and grapple everything. What area is taboo for parking. Can we get a definition of the intent of these new rules?

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      • #4
        Our whole strategy went out the window as well. I agree it is very late into the season for this large of a change.

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        • #5
          Here is what I posted in the Coaches Mentors forum.
          I cannot post in the game rules Q&A for some reason. So here goes.
          "Robots may not obstruct another Robot's path of travel in the area between the Lander and a Crater for more than 5 seconds."
          If a robot has expanded to 36" wide and wants to drive between the crater and the lander, do you have have to move to get out of its way since there is no room for them to go around since they are so wide?
          If there is room for an 18"x18"x18" robot to go past the lander while you are in the area between the lander and the crater, but they want to go exactly where you are, are you obstructing another robot's path of travel?
          In years past if there was another path they could take to get to objects then it was not considered blocking. What is the difference between blocking and obstructing?

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          • #6
            This is why the forum posts need to be opened up as soon as the game is released. A lot of teams, us included, were creating a strategy around the way the manual was written. Adding new and big rule changes 3-1/2 weeks into the season is huge.

            In regards to rulings, I also wonder why this season in the forums they ruled against the ServoCity Linear Actuator Kit but last season they allowed the ServoCity Cascading X-Rail Slide Kit and since it's introduction have always allowed the Andymark Tile Runner.

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            • #7
              I think they say the linear actuator kit is 2 degrees of freedom and the other 2 kits have one. I'm not saying that I always understand how degrees of freedom are counted, so don't ask for an explanation from me.

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              • #8
                I'm not sure I always understand the 1 degree of freedom either. I wonder if someone from FIRST could clarify how this is determined. By the way I interpret 1 degree of freedom, I would rule the Tile Runner, Linear Actuator Kit and the Cascading X-Rail Slide Kit illegal if they are assembled identically to how they are purchased.

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                • #9
                  First define "1 degree of freedom" to mean that a mechanism's state can be completely defined by a single variable. That would make the linear actuator kit legal and the Tile Runner kit illegal (since the left and right side would require independent variables). However they have specifically exempted drivetrain kits from this rule.

                  But I don't see what makes the linear actuator kits illegal. When assembled there are parts that move in different dimensions but they are mechanically constrained such that they are fully defined by a single variable.

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                  • #10
                    ViperMentor : that's a very good point: if the definition of "one degree of freedom" isn't that the state can be completely defined by a single (scalar) variable, then what on earth is it, actually?

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                    • #11
                      To define single degree of freedom, <RM02> refers to a docuoment titled "Single degree of freedom (SDOF) systems" written by James MW Brownjohn, University of Plymouth (UK).

                      The ServoCity Linear Actuator and the goBILDA Linear Actuator are not really kits. Essentially they are a BOM of readily availible legal COTS parts and an assembly guide. It is a pretty trivial assembly. If someone publishes an assembly guide to some trivial assembly, does that render the assembly illegal?

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                      • #12
                        Relative to the new wording of GS03, is it legal to control multiple elements in the crater for the purpose of sorting/selecting 2 minerals to transport to the cargo hold or depot if the excess minerals are shed before leaving the crater. Some wording in the rule makes it sound like this would be legal and other wording makes it sound like it may not. Two potential examples of this type of sorting:


                        1 - A robot takes possession of several minerals, which it holds while a sorting system selects 2 matched minerals. The remaining minerals are discarded in the crater, then the robot leaves the crater with just the 2 minerals.

                        2 - An intake sorts minerals as they pass through. Undesired minerals are immediately ejected while desired minerals are kept. The system has the potential to have 3-4 minerals passing through it at a given time, but only the minerals that will be kept are held by the robot. Once the 2 desired minerals have been selected, the robot leaves the crater with just those 2 minerals.

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                        • #13
                          You can possess and control as many minerals that are in the crater as you want for up to 5 seconds. You must shed excess minerals "before performing any other gameplay activities".

                          I believe there is a typo in the new <GS3>: "Within the Crater, plowing through ..." should read "Outside the Crater, plowing through..."
                          Last edited by Alec; 10-08-2018, 12:25 PM.

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                          • #14
                            You will need an official answer. But I think Alec is misunderstanding GS3. You cannot control more than 2 if that gives you a strategic advantage. Controlling for the purposes of sorting seems like strategy to me.

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                            • #15
                              I am very confused. The GDC ruling re: the linear actuator speaks of reasons based on two axes of motion. Yet the axes are coupled, so that (per Brownjohn) the motion (the state of the system) is in fact defined by a single independent coordinate), so would seem a SDOF, by defintion. Like I say, very confused.

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