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  • Mentor 777
    started a topic Major penalty amount?

    Major penalty amount?

    I've been searching the game manuals and the forum for a penalty amount. I'm sure that should be easy to find, but I have had no success. How many points are awarded to the opposing alliance for a major penalty?

    Thanks in advance.

  • Mentor 777
    replied
    To me, it looks like it should be one way or the other on the "inadvertent" knocking off the opposing team's silver minerals. Why should a team that has worked hard on developing a consistent sampling routine be penalized 25 points for their opponent's actions, whether intentional or not. If you are penalizing the sampling team (taking away the 25 points earned because of an action of their opponent), it looks like the penalty should be there either way. If not, then give the team the 25 points they earned.

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  • FTC6041
    replied
    And anyway, last weekend's ruling about minerals being knocked out of the crater- it's just that. In the video, the robot slammed its arm into the crater and knocked out minerals in the crater, which knocked off the sampling minerals. That ruling was not about robots, but minerals. Just pointing that out. I know I'm being *very* repetitive, but just making it clear, the ruling for #21 ( https://ftcforum.usfirst.org/forum/t...3155#post73155 ) was knocking minerals from the crater. Rules #9 and #11 apply to robots.

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  • Mentor 777
    replied
    On our autonomous code for the crater side, if the gold mineral is on the right (standing at the lander and facing the crater), we land, sample, knock off the gold mineral on the crater side, drive to the depot to deliver our marker, move over a bit to intentionally knock off the gold mineral on the depot side (if our partner can sample, it won't be there and won't harm anything. If our partner can't sample, we get the additional 25 points), drop off the marker, and come back along the wall to park. We did achieve a 105 autonomous on one round during the last competition doing this.

    How would a ref watching a robot doing a match possibly know if the mineral was removed "intentionally" or not? We do indeed intentionally knock off an element on the way to the depot for one of the three possibilities. If the mineral is in the middle or left position, we have been very careful to make sure that it does not touch the other white mineral. We are very careful on our program for the depot side to steer clear of the opposing alliance's sample field.

    I do agree that it seems pretty straightforward that a penalty should have been awarded. If not, we could easily change our code for the depot side to knock off the right side element of the opposing alliance every single time. That would give a 33% chance of knocking off their gold mineral, so why not just adjust it to "accidentally" knock off both the middle and right, if there is no penalty involved?

    For 11343 Mentor, I just want to make clear the path I am going down. The past is the past. We neither intend to nor believe that it would be possible to argue the ruling from last weekend. I do want to make sure the refs are on the same page in case it happens again, if possible.

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  • FTC6041
    replied
    Originally posted by 11343_Mentor View Post
    I seem to remember this coming up already, and it contradicts what path you are going down. The jist of the ruling was that there is no penalty for an opposing team to knock off an opposing mineral, as long as it has not been deemed intentional. This means ultimately it is at the discretion of the judge to determine intent. So it sounds like the judge did what likely was right, he/she didn't believe it was intentional, therefore no penalty.
    According to Autonomous Period #9 ( https://ftcforum.usfirst.org/forum/t...6513#post66513 )
    and #11 ( https://ftcforum.usfirst.org/forum/t...8474#post68474 ),
    it is a major penalty, regardless of whether it was intentional or not.

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  • 11343_Mentor
    replied
    I seem to remember this coming up already, and it contradicts what path you are going down. The jist of the ruling was that there is no penalty for an opposing team to knock off an opposing mineral, as long as it has not been deemed intentional. This means ultimately it is at the discretion of the judge to determine intent. So it sounds like the judge did what likely was right, he/she didn't believe it was intentional, therefore no penalty.

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  • Mentor 777
    replied
    Thanks! I will have that printed out for our next competition. One of the students took a video to the question box to show that the opposing alliance knocked off the silver mineral. They were advised that if they showed the ref the video, we would be disqualified. It was the final round of the championship, it had been a very long day, and it was a bit chaotic. With the threat of disqualification and the fact that we were advancing to the next level anyway, we decided to let it go.

    In hindsight, we should have had the answered questions in hand that clarify that the penalty should have been assessed. We did not anticipate that being an issue. One of the students said that they were told that no penalties are assessed during autonomous. Again, it was chaotic and I am not sure of the source of that statement. I do plan to address this with the head ref at the next competition before it begins to be sure they are on the same page (if the opportunity presents itself). At the minimum, we will have a game plan with the proper printouts in hand ready to go to the question box.

    In watching the video over and over, it appears that the judges did not see the opposing alliance robot knock off the silver jewel. The closest ref was watching our robot sample. Then, something caught his attention on the other side of the field. As he was looking at that, the opposing alliance robot knocked off our silver jewel on its way to park. This is where a video that clearly shows what happened should be admissible. I don't understand the point of specifically disallowing a ref to review pictures or video in rule T3. In the case of a clearly missed call, what could possibly be the harm?

    We would have won the league championship if this call had been made correctly. The point difference was less than 25, so we would have won if the opposing alliance had not knocked off the silver jewel. Since they did knock it off, taking away the 25 points that we had rightfully earned, the 40 point penalty would have caused us to win by an additional 15 points.
    Last edited by Mentor 777; 02-12-2019, 11:20 AM.

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  • StanleyToney
    replied
    Interference with opposing Alliance Scoring or Sample Field during Autonomous is a Major Penalty, and you should have been awarded 40 points. Rule <GS2>

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  • Mentor 777
    replied
    Awesome! Thanks! I searched "major penalty" and didn't think to just go with major. It is "major penalties" where it talks about the amount.

    Thanks for the help! With all my work on the robot and rules, I have neglected learning about the penalty amounts. We work hard to avoid penalties, but we had an opposing alliance knock off our silver mineral at a competition this weekend. My understanding is that we should not have received the 25 points, since the silver mineral was removed (even though it was our opponent that moved it) and they should have been given a major penalty. There was no penalty. We appealed it, but there was some confusion in the appeal process since it was the final round of the championship. I did notice that we were awarded the 25 points for sampling (incorrectly, according to my understanding) so I thought it would be a wash. Also, as a finalist, we still advance to the next level, so pursuing it was a moot point.

    With the major penalty being 40 points, the net effect of correctly removing our 25 points for sampling and giving them a penalty would be an increase in our score of 15 points. I'll have to look back to see how close it was. I don't remember the exact score.

    (Correction - as of yesterday when I posted this, I was under the impression that our alliance partner had not landed. The autonomous score was 85, so I thought an error had been made on the score. Therefore, pushing the issue of the penalty would have been negated by correcting the error of the score. Upon further discussion with the team last night, it is clear where the score came from. Our partner did land, (30X2 for landing, our marker, and our parking for a total of 85). So, we received neither the 25 points for sampling nor the 40 point penalty.

    Last edited by Mentor 777; 02-12-2019, 11:27 AM. Reason: Updated due to new information

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  • 3805Mentor
    replied
    First two hits of a search on "major" in game manual part 2

    Major Penalties (forty points).


    Major Penalties give the non-offending Alliance forty

    (40) points per occurrence
    Last edited by 3805Mentor; 02-11-2019, 05:30 PM. Reason: Even though preview said it worked pasted material lost

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