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  • Lander and Field set-up

    Our robot was designed to hang and lower itself during autonomous mode. At a recent competition, our robot was deemed to be lower than the 4 inch required height before the match started. It turns out that the lander handle height was off by 1/2 inch. The handle opening is 1.5 inches. We were told that the error in the setup/measurements can be as much as 1 inch. I understand this all to be true. The concern is that the hanging apparatus must be roughly 1/2 inch in order to support your robot and that leaves ABSOLUTELY no error room if the height is off by an inch. At half an inch, you programming and mechanics are off by 33% in reference to the opening. 1 inch is a 66% difference! Not to mention all codes and mechanics would then need to be adjusted if even possible for the 18 inch requirements. My question is: can we have a game specific rule/allowance to adjust the lander (handle) to the correct specification of 22 from the floor to the bottom of the handle prior to match play?
    Last edited by brent-johnston@ksd111.org; 11-09-2018, 03:02 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by brent-johnston@ksd111.org View Post
    Our robot was designed to hang and lower itself during autonomous mode. At a recent competition, our robot was deemed to be lower than the 4 inch required height before the match started. It turns out that the lander handle height was off by 1/2 inch. The handle opening is 1.5 inches. We were told that the error in the setup/measurements can be as much as 1 inch. I understand this all to be true. The concern is that the hanging apparatus must be roughly 1/2 inch in order to support your robot and that leaves ABSOLUTELY no error room if the height is off by an inch. At half an inch, you programming and mechanics are off by 33% in reference to the opening. 1 inch is a 66% difference! Not to mention all codes and mechanics would then need to be adjusted if even possible for the 18 inch requirements. My question is: can we have a game specific rule/allowance to adjust the lander (handle) to the correct specification of 22 from the floor to the bottom of the handle prior to match play?
    I have proposed an exception to Rule G26 for this specific measurement in the . No official response yet, but this is definitely something that should be addressed. Thank you for posting! I completely agree with what you have shared.

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    • #3
      I do not have access to the official team login. Therefore, I can not "officially" ask this question. Two teams have posted about this issue already affecting their competitions. Perhaps, someone could ask it on the official game question portion.

      1. Latched to the Lander - Robot is Completely Supported by their Alliance-specific side of the Lander with the following constraints:

      a. The Robot must be Completely Supported by the Lander Support Bracket. Incidental contact with the Lander walls or the legs is allowed.

      b. The lowest point on a Robot and Team Marker can be no closer than four (4) inches (102 mm) from the Playing Field Floor.

      c. When Completely Supported by the Lander, Robots must be within the 18 inch x 18 inch x 18 inch (45.7 cm x 45.7 cm x 45.7 cm) starting volume constraint.

      When the field is correctly set up, b an c are redundant. Rule G26 is the only reason a robot meeting the requirement for c would not meet the requirement for b. The original poster of this thread did a very good job of laying out the issue. Either an exception for Rule G26 should be made for this particular measurement (reducing the allowed variance to possibly 1/4 inch or so) or item b should be removed from "Latched to the Lander."


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      • #4
        The diagonal of an 18 inch cube is over 25 inches, so your robot could indeed be inside the sizing dimensions and touch the floor while hanging from a corner.

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        • #5
          The robot has to fit within the 18x18x18 box. It does not have to be that big, however.

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          • #6
            When checking the size of the robot in the sizing cube, does the robot need to be oriented in space as it would be during hanging? Our robot fits within the cube while it is on the floor. But when it hangs it is at an angle relative to the floor. So in that orientation it sticks out of the cube because the diagonal is more than 18 inches. During inspection the inspector said the robot must be oriented as it would be during hanging but the box remains flat on the table. RG02 is not clear on this.

            What is is the official interpretation of configuration? Does that include orientation of the robot?

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            • #7
              I am not understanding why there is confusion around this, the rules to me seem very clear, and your robot design should accommodate the variability. Where I believe there is confusion is people are thinking their robot attachment point needs to be at 18 inches, and that is not true. Our team simply put the attachment point on our robot at 16 inches, so even if the hanging point is at 21 inches, our robot sits roughly 5 inches off the floor.

              Our robot also takes the rules literally. when attached to the hanging point, you can take the 18 inch sizing box and place it over our robot and it will fit inside the box. Part of good engineering design is to understand tolerances in your application, and this is a very good lesson to teach young engineers.

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              • #8
                To be clear about my question. The robot in the hanging configuration easily fits inside the box when the box is on the floor and the robot is sitting on its wheels on the floor. However when the robot hangs it is rotated but does not change configuration. So its size doesn't change, it still fits within the sizing box. The orientation changes because the robot rotates in space to hang. There is a diagonal arm which unwinds to lower the robot, a sort-of reverse arm curl. When the robot is in this orientation it will not fit within the box, even though the robot configuration is unchanged.

                The inspectors have included the orientation of the robot in space as a part of the configuration. This is very unclear in the rules. The rule has been the same for the past 6 years I've been a mentor. In past years, the robot is placed on its wheels on a table, the sizing box placed over it to see if the robot fits. This season, that has been interpreted differently.

                I realize this forum is unofficial, so I've asked our lead coach to post this on the official game Q&A.
                Last edited by jedgington7880; 11-17-2018, 11:39 PM.

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                • #9
                  I am not sure what is question here. To me if the robot fits in box on table then it will always fits in box as long as nothing moved or config changes. If you try to insert box on table at wiered orientation then robot will also not fit and it is not required and no one will test like that. Requirement is 18X18X18 and to measure box will always inserted on robot with robot fully supported on wheels

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                  • #10
                    I agree with you, FTC12676. But this is not how the inspectors at our league meet interpreted the rule.

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                    • #11
                      That is strange as no robot will pass inspection unless it is sphere shape of 18 in dia. You can challenge their decision

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                      • #12
                        The inspector's manual does not say that the robot must be on its wheels. The manual can be found here. https://www.firstinspires.org/sites/...tor-manual.pdf I do not think the robot must be oriented identically to the way it was inspected before the match. I can't imagine the consultation between the head ref and the lead inspector for every latched robot.

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                        • #13
                          I would also think the robot while hanging is not self supported which is a requirement for checking the size. Hopefully there will be an official clarification on this rule before the next meet.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jedgington7880 View Post
                            But this is not how the inspectors at our league meet interpreted the rule.
                            So were you not allowed to start latched because of this?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FLARE View Post

                              So were you not allowed to start latched because of this?
                              We were told that we could go with it for this first meet but for the next one we either had to fit in the box in the hanging orientation or else start out on the floor, not latched.

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